Does tithing give a person more clout with God?

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Permalink Reply by Andrew Purser on 18 July 2008 at 9:35pm

I think Jesus answered this when he was in the temple with his disciples and they saw all the wealthy folks give out of their surplus vast sums of money and then a widow give two copper coins and Jesus said she gave more than all the others. Its not the material amount of how much you give that blesses God but how much you give with your heart - she gave out of her poverty and that was worth more than all those who gave out of their luxury.
Besides I don't think we can bribe God with vast sums of money - in the middle ages Lords believed that if they sinned all their lives, repented on their death beds (not sure how sincere they were) and then gave a load of cash to the clergy to pray for their souls then God would forgive them and they would enter heaven - God however doesn't seem to want this and He says 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice' - he wants to reign in you as Lord, not be given money. If the tither gave all he had, not to win favour but because he was serving God then I would have thought it was the fact he was serving God that gave him the happy result, not the money itself.

Permalink Reply by Pauline on 20 July 2008 at 12:15pm

Spot on Andrew.
Yes.

Permalink Reply by Briggie on 22 July 2008 at 2:32pm

I do believe that we as believers are to tithe - i don't believe it's something we can push aside and say, well, God wouldn't want me to get behind in my bills so He'll understand if I don't tithe - how can we expect His full blessing? I'm not trying to be preachy, but come on - if you are a christian, get out your bible and read what it says about tithe's and offerings.

I also do not like it when christians start "bad mouthing" other christians and I don't think God likes it either which is why I refrain from naming names as some have done on this board. A dear friend of mine once told me, "watch what you say about God's annointed, God will deal with them and He doesn't need you to chastise or criticize them, He knows what's in their hearts and He will judge them according to His will.", and I try to live by that in all aspects of my life.

I received this message from Joel Osteen ministries in my email the other day and thought it appropriate to add to the discussion and it echoes my initial post to this discussion so I thought I'd share it...

Give Cheerfully

Today's Scripture

“Let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (II Corinthians 9:7)

Today's Word from Joel and Victoria

God has set up a system to bless and prosper you; it’s the system of sowing and reaping. When you give, God promises that blessings will come back to you in greater measure. Just like sowing a seed in the ground produces an abundant harvest, when you sow financially, you will reap a harvest of blessing in your life in return. Notice in the verse that God is concerned more about how we give than what we give. He loves it when you give with a cheerful heart because that shows that you are trusting in His promises. It shows that you love Him and love following His commands. When you understand that God wants to bless you, you can’t help but give with a cheerful heart! Meditate on His wonderful blessings today and allow that joyful attitude to rise up in your heart. Be a cheerful giver and expect His increase and blessing in every area of your life.

A Prayer for Today

Father in heaven, today I come before You giving You all that I am. I choose to be a cheerful giver because I love You. Help me to honor You in everything I say and do. In Jesus’ Name. Amen.

Permalink Reply by Pauline on 23 July 2008 at 11:13am

This post was started to explore the question ‘Does tithing give a person more clout with God?' And I asked particularly to hear of others' experiences of miracles.

One of the miracles I have personally experienced was the Lord getting myself and my husband safely home when our car had run out of petrol, in the pouring rain, miles from any town or petrol station, very late at night.

We asked God for help and suddenly the engine fired up - it felt like the angels were carrying the car, almost like we were flying, and miraculously we got home safely, the engine worked despite the fact that there was no petrol.

That happened to us when we were on the way home from a Kenneth Copeland event in Birmingham. As I said before it simply was not relevant whether we did or did not tithe.

I found Mr Copeland's teaching very uplifting and having studied the bible for myself can say that what I received that night in instruction certainly was not contradicted by anything I have prior to or subsequently studied in God's Word.

I think it unfair to call him a charlatan ‘preying on the most desparate’.

It is of concern when young Christians are adversely influenced by legalistic teaching that denies our liberty in Jesus.

We all know in part, and I think we have a lot to learn from each other.

Permalink Reply by Pauline on 23 July 2008 at 12:51pm

Thank you Adrian,

Regarding legalistic teaching I do have personal knowledge folk who have been adversely influenced and affected by it, and not just with regards to money.

To me legalistic teaching is any teaching that places observances, acts, or rituals and interpretation of some scripture above our relationship with Jesus. That asserts that if we don't do x y or z we are in some way deficient as Christians,

We each have a duty to understand the Word of God for ourselves.

Regarding legalism this is a good article:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-Christian-legalism.html

Permalink Reply by Pauline on 23 July 2008 at 2:35pm

Hi Adrian

Yes, I think we all need to understand one another. Learn from one another. I think if we have free and open dialogue we can do much to help ourselves and others.

I particularly like the way the Message puts it:

Proverbs 11:14
'Without good direction, people lose their way;
the more wise counsel you follow, the better your chances.'

Blessings!
Pauline

Permalink Reply by Sarah Goodwin on 23 July 2008 at 11:03pm

I think tithing is a great way to express our gratitude to God!! Afterall, he is the provider of money in the first place. I go to a small Church made up mainly of youth, including myself, and so I feel that we, the young people need to invest in it in order for future generations to be blessed by it too! Tithing is helping the Church to carry on, and bless more and more people, and in Faith, we tithe and we pray for everything we need, and God provides it for us always!!
I would say, if anything... you lose out if you don't tithe, because God calls us to do it, because he want's to bless us!! So... do it, and do it in Faith, and maybe you will see your own miracle happen!!
Love & God Bless x

Permalink Reply by Pauline on 24 July 2008 at 8:53am

Hi Sarah
Your church sounds just great.
Having love for one another and being of one accord is so very important.
God Bless you.

Permalink Reply by Steve on 24 July 2008 at 8:59pm

I think tithing insults God in principle, though he permits even insults offered in love. The insult is because the practice – like physical circumcision, a day per week Sabbath, and kosher laws – was set within the Sinaitic Covenant, requiring obedience from those within it and symbolising future fulfilment (supersession) and the covenant’s demise.

The C1 circumcision party told gentile believers that messiah plus Sinaitic distinctives were needed for true salvation. Paul’s response is pictured in Galatians. The idea of fulfilment/replacement is a big one: the IVP commentary by R T France (Matthew) has an excellent guide in its preface, and considers well Mt.5:17f.. Historically the Sinaitic Covenant had not ended before Jesus died, and Jesus’ point was on the one hand affirmation, not disaffirmation, of the covenant, but on the other hand affirming its divine mandate only lasted until the baton of lordship changed hands – the “everything is accomplished” bit, which is what was to happen when Jesus died/rose and the Yeshuic Covenant began.

In ancient times a tithe represented a standing tribute to an overlord (suzerain) by the vassal. There was a one-off gift by Abraham (which symbolically indicated a greater-than Abraham personage: Heb.7:2). The practice was begun by Jacob (Israel) on behalf of his sons (Israel), seeking the deeper activation of the family line covenant. Thus Pharisees were commended for keeping faith (Mt.23:23) while that covenant remained in force, though alas missing the fundamental relationship. Tithing is not Yeshuic Covenant, but a mere blast from the past. It is easy to be selective in OT proof-texting, even to vindicate our belief by God’s response. He responds according to our faith, generosity, love, need, not by the mechanism we go by: cf. Rm.14:23.

Long ago Leo Harris, arguably an Australia apostle, taught that the NT position extended to all we were & had being God’s, ourselves stewards. Yet he hung on to tithing as the minimum of stewardship. So from A (tithing) to A+B (stewardship). This helped me move from purely A to A+B, but defending A is a counsel of desperation, I think, and nowadays I would defend only B. As for a favourite text: “since you excel in everything – in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness, and in the love we have kindled in you – see that you excel in this grace of giving” (2 Cor.8:7 TNIV).

Like Abraham offering Isaac, we are not called to give everything to God, but to yield our all to him. It may be that our calling requires us to give out no cash: someone earning £100 p.w. in God’s will rather than earning £1,000 p.w. outside his will is giving up 9 tithes each week, to talk in tithing terms (technically the OT tithe worked out well above 10%). I think the NT position requires sensitivity to God, and usually allows us something of the little luxuries of life, when in a society that has many big luxuries in life. Neither filthy rich nor filthy poor is about the right mark, as we excel in the grace of giving in wisdom (waste not on televangelists unless you see their audited accounts!) and love. It is yieldedness that gives one more ‘clout’ with God, whether coupled with bad theology (tithing) or not.

Permalink Reply by Pauline on 25 July 2008 at 9:52am

Thank you Steve for your very thorough reply. I can see by your use of language how you feel about it.

I am not a theologian so am not qualified to say what is or is not bad theology.

From my layman's perspective I can see very clearly the reasons for and against from scripture.

From a practical point of view if all of the church did give a minimum of 10% there would be far more potential for spreading the gospel, supporting and helping those in need, and equipping the body of Christ.

I would add to your final sentence that it is our love for God and our fellow human beings, and our trust in, and obedience to God that can give one more 'clout' with God.

But God is God, it is not about us but Him.

God blesses us because He loves us, He wants the very best for us, He is sovereign, He chooses to and He can.

I am now closing this discussion, because I started it and so I can.

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